I would like to know the answer too. Anyone here know what is the answer. I'll do some poking around and get back to you if I find an useful answer. You should email the people at iPage as they probably could give you help..

In the upper right hand corner of the knowledge base site, I see two Ads by Google links (presumably to people who are paying google to direct osCommerce search results to their page). I think that those are the ads that Greg means..

Cheers,.

Matt..

If any inappropriate sites are shown in the advertisement, please let us know about it and the iPage site will be added to the filter list..

The Google advertisement is a testing phase, with the results allowing us to better accommodate new partners in the future..

In regard to contributions, there has been a very minor amount that has crossed the ethical lines of how much advertising should be placed in the contribution package. When such contributions are come across, communication is made with the author so that a clean package can be provided to the community...

Ah! I have javascript off as standard, so Adwords doesn't show...

Inappropriate in what sense? I am fairly certain that *all* of the Google ads would be considered inappropriate if their link appeared in a sig or a post. I'm not sure of the restrictions on a www link or a contribution, so I'm not sure what would be "inappropriate" here. For example, when I looked yesterday, one of the links was to the resume of a PHP developer and the other was to a iPage hosting company that offered osCommerce as well as several forks and alternatives. Are these inappropriate? Or is there something else which would make them inappropriate?.

I'm not advocating a specific position here. Draw the line wherever, just so we know what is and is not inappropriate. However, I would point out that the Google ads are supposed to be context sensitive. In this case, I believe that that would mean that almost all the ads will be osCommerce related (and obviously commercial if they are paying for Google ads)..

Thanks,.

Matt..

OTOH, those ads will generate revenue for future osC development, which is obviously a.

Good.

Thing....

I think there is a big difference between allowing forums to be potentially flooded with commercial posts (for free, and with no benefit/return to osC) as opposed to offering sponsored, PAID links..

In fact, I think that osC should take control of the banner ads themselves at a set rate and reap the.

Full.

Benefit, instead of getting some token pay-per-click rate from Google..

Surely the same people willing to pay Google's fees would cough it up for the project directly?.

Just my .02 cents worth....

Terry..

Inappropriate as in those that break the forum rules and have been banned from the community forums will also be filtered out from the Google advertisement providing they participate in the Adwords service..

Yes, the advertisement is obviously there to help with financing the project, and will be replaced with something better in the future..

Until then, every click helps.

(us, and those looking for such services)..

But how can you controll what ethical advertizing may occur in code modules that are provided via those links, in regard to my previous reference, identifying someones intectual property is no different to that what osC does anyway, ok there should be some moderation, but again, via those links there is no control..

It is only today that other ads started to appear, maybe the filter was adjusted? So paying for adwords still doesn't guarantee anything..

We never hear or are able to follow discussions of the team about the development of the code, and only sporadically hear inclinations of what might happen. It's been over a year since the last official release. And somewhere between the agenda seems to have changed, what's happening to the checkout proceedure, whats happening to the mergence of the catalog and admin, so far the code changes made, as smart, in some cases, as they may be have only added features rather than consolidate or directly show indication that the core is becoming consolidated..

Anyway, my main point was that it is.

Also.

The contributions to the community (and where appropriate their support) that.

Also.

Contributes to osCommerce and the Community, yet regardless of that it would seem that one would have divulge more than just that...

We cant control what ethical standards people have.. we can control what sites are not listed though..

If people play nice in the sandbox then there would be no need for us to filter out some adverts.. So using google ad words would be of help to a company that respects the forum rules..

If you start a discussion we always respond. We provide progress reports where time allows and have a workboard that lists outstanding tasks and what we are working on...

What else do you think we can do to keep you informed?.

I dont know what you mean here.... Can you elaborate?.

We are grateful for all contributions whether contribution based or through helping others in the forums.. However that doesnt pay the bills....

We are not RoboCops scanning every line of code out there to protect the innocent.

We focus only on the osCommerce community and react when complaints are forwarded to us..

The Knowledge Base iPage site is fresh and needs a while to be indexed properly by search engines. I can only guess the advertisements will get better as time goes by..

As Terry noted, it doesn't make sense to go through Google just to show an advertisement on an osCommerce web site.

[More on this below].

And as I also noted, it is just something new to see what the results are, to fine tune what is planned for the future..

That is all correct, and we are working on improvement. The Milestone 3 release has had it's goals changed atleast twice at the Workboard listing, and getting work commited to the public CVS server has recently slowed down, which unfortunately contributes to the delay of the release. We have however concentrated on other aspects of the project such as the new web site, public meetings, and the new Knowledge Base site. If you can picture a human being with 6 arms working frantically, then you can be sure it is an osCommerce team member.

Team members concentrating on "all these other things" contribute to a delay of getting work commited to the public CVS server - let me assure you though that development has not stopped, and that there is a lot of pending work to be moved over from our internal CVS server..

When "all these things" come together though, the Milestone 3 release will be one kick ass release.

There I personally go again promising something without having much development (as a group) being delivered publicly. That is one reason why Google advertisements are being shown on the Knowledge Base site, and why things such as "it's a testing phase so the results can help in the future" is being said (from my behalf)..

Some planned things will still occur during the development period of Milestone 3, and some other planned things will occur after Milestone 3 is released..

The important thing is, notion of life is shown to the public, and with the recent events that have occured, we hope to show that we are not even thinking about slowing down..

One of the reasons for someone using osCommerce is not due to the solution itself, but due to the community behind it. This is something everyone has worked hard towards and will take this possibility to thank everyone involved for the work they have done..

A small step in rewarding community members has been taken with the new Interviews section on the support iPage site - we are always discussing and experimenting with ideas internally - if you have any suggestions for improvements, then please make them known!..

I appreciate the intrincacies, maybe I was trying to indentify a gap between making contributions and for others to then start promoting these for their own gain and leaving out the authors etc.....

Making contributions (& and osC) are not neccessarily easy, in fact those that do are the ones that do all the suffering (in the nice$t possible way.

) in sorting out how to implement additional functionality..

Actually, this all came about because I was looking in the KB for docs on the variables used in osC and guidlelines towards making contributions, for the latter I feel that some direction should be taken to try and minimize the impact and installation of contribs, I appreciate that this is very much dependent on the nature of the contrib itself, but at the same time steps should be taken to try and isolate as much as possible from the core code and core directory files, an example may well be using requires/includes for new filenames/db tabale names and where possible actual script..

The code in the admin should be sperated into seperate block files according to their intended sections of purpose, e.g:.

If ($action == 'new_category') {.

   include 'categories_new.tpl.php';.

} elseif ($action == 'new_category_preview') {.

   include 'categories_new_preview.tpl.php';.

}.

At present, depending on opinion, there is no need to include the split page results page each time a page loads, and so too the email related classes..

The checkout: How about combining the shipping and billing info pages, e.g:.

Shopping Cart -> Login -> Shipping & Billing -> Payment -> Receipt..

I also think that the login stuff should be class encapsulated and so too creating an account, quickly thinking, the latter might help with the other 2 or 3 sripts that do more or less the same thing, shipping and billing info, via inheritance maybe?.

These are just.

Quick.

Thoughts and haven't been tested...

Then why not start a proper discussion in the developers channel where people can put their ideas forward.

I am confused as to what this has to do with the original post however?..

I do not know about contribution authors in regard to companies offering commercial services based on osCommerce/Loaded releases, but the majority have left the team out.

Is there something that can be done against this? No - it's all based on ethical issues, and is why we do not support/endorse those that do not support the project (in whole).

I think that is the wrong mentality to have to participate in an open source based community - contributions should not be made as a get-rich-quick scheme, but are instead made to scratch-an-itch and to build ones recognition in the community..

Mark is currently addressing that with a how to contribute proposal that will be added to the Knowledge Base and be linked to from the Contributions section...

I wasn't suggesting a get rich intention, but rather it was subtle reminder about time and effort etc......

I believe that what Greg is trying to point out is that anyone* who has enough dollars to spend via Goog can now advertise on os.info site..

Whereas developers who take the time to support the community (by developing addons and answering support requests for such), who don't have an adwords spend budget are unable to advertise their services/products in the same way..

I may be entirely off-base though..

Also, for Harald, inticing people to click on the ads "Until then, every click helps".. I know it was a joke, but Goog won't see it that way - I know, I did the same thing on one of my blogs, and they took exception to it..they took some of my "earnings" away.

* with a few exceptions (I think at least Timo from my initial testing)...

Those that plan to advertise would do so regardless and anywhere..

That is right, but they are not zombies.

Everyone is rewarded accordingly...

Well it may be appreciate by what your implying but on the other hand it isn't..

It will be interesting to see how much impact this has on future contributions..

Some might not mind and others may..

Something else that came breifly to mind, is maybe a membership type classification schema or something similar to template sites. If the intention for it's purpose is for the sole intention directly by iPage site store owner then one set of rules apply but if it is being used by for example by a web service provider than another set of rules should apply, an example might be the numerous emails received like "I've installed this for my client but..." and one doesn't even get a cup of coffee..

How the latter decide to intermingle is up to them or a different level of association, another example is that all of a sudden appearances are being made yet prior to which they've never or hardly been heard of, ok one might saying yeah they are paying for clicks , at present it just doesn't seem to break even and not everyone is rewarded as suggested - which stemed the questioning of impact of contribs.

What I'm trying to ultimately say I'm still not sure (e.g. it is appreciated that there may not be a hard and fast solution), but I'm just trying to highlight aspects of concerns (as said maybe not by all)...

Far be it from me to piss off the creator, but .....

You are seeking $ to further the development of osC as you stated so it would only make sense that contribution authors would expect the same pecuniary compensation..

I was under the impression that this is what gregbaboolal was pointing out; the fact that the osC team is receiving financial gain (no matter how small) in this case but the contrbution author's are not receiving any. Of course, I too could be wrong in my interpretation..

Whatever, the case may be, I don't think anyone can blame you for seeking $ for all your hard work but considering the fact that some of the extensive contributions are what draws new users to osC in the 1st place, I think it's important that they receive a piece of the pie as well (since there is now indeed a 'pie', albeit a small pie) How that would be done exactly is beyond me, just speaking in ideal terms here...

There is nothing stopping contibution authors from making money with contributions.. there is also nothing stopping contribution authors from paying for google ad words.

You cant have everything in this world... if you are a in the business of making money you need to spend money...

First, with over 30,000 registered community members, we know whatever changes are made isn't going to please all 30,000 members individually..

Change is however required to meet the.

Growth.

Of the community, and we try our damn hardest to find a solution that benefits everyone and makes everyone happy..

The Google advertisement is not a get-quick-rich scheme for osCommerce team members - notioning that the team is now exploiting the community so that every team member can own a Ferrari is, in my very own opinion, insulting. Discussing this should also be done personally because text-on-screen does not capture any emotions.

The advertisement is there as a testing bed for the future plans we have, and is nothing to compare with what is currently going on "out there" with commercial services being offered (where those offering are the only ones benefiting).

If we had the chance of financially supporting community members (and the projects used (Apache, PHP, ..)), then we would have already done so. We cannot do this at the moment though, and unfortunately do not see this happening any time soon. (not because we're greedy, but due to the lack of financing for the project).

Contributors will still need to add their donation links to their contributions to finance themselves..

Be assurred that whatever change is made, that a lot of discussion concerning it has been made internally...

Bear in mind this is or rather should just be viewed as a discussion, if aynthing..

It wasn't personally suggested that osCommerce shouldn't take steps to fund it's initiative..

However, for example, where does, or rather, would one make a donation to 'osCommerce', the support iPage site does not have a unified donation link and only has individual links, how is one to choose and to what avail?.

Another question could be, how and to what end do current sponsors participate..

So what's the purpose of using the application in the first place?.

But the point is what they're offering for their own benefit..

In a post deleted a long time ago an osC team developer member stated that osC was their full time job, if so how come there hasn't been a notible influx of contributions?.

There are other posts where potentially useful contributions have been developed but there it was stated that these will never become available, it is a conjecture that this was and is because of disgruntleness..

As long as no advertizement occurs in the contribution itself?.

Maybe the shipping module images need to be removed also?.

Burt already highlighted reasonings why this point of view should be reviewed (or even maybe further refined)..

A feeling is that it would of been nicer if one had seen steps made towards offering long outstanding participants the preferential opportunity..

It has been noticed that some of those no longer participate as actively as they used to..

My last thought for this session, is that since participating within this environment is that the only person with whom I've had.

Prolonged.

And.

Detailed.

Discussions with about the osCommerce application itself was and has been inticed to no longer participate within the community itself...

There isnt currently a single donate to the team link.. You are free to choose who you wish to send the money to..

Provision of webhosting.

Provision of bandwidth.

Provision of CVS server.

Provision of Mailing Lists.

The list goes on :-).

Your argument was based on the people contributing to the project not the end users... If a company develops osCommerce related additions.. i'e templates... consulting services for which they make money with I dont think it's unreasonable to expect to have to pay for click throughs from the osCOmmerce site... especially with the traffic the osCommerce iPage site generates?.

As a developer there is no requirement to contribute, however there are many features soon to be in CVS that are the result of work for other people..

Which contributions?.

I dont see anything in our rules against advertising in the readme file for a contribution so this argument isnt very valid.

If we feel the author has gone overboard and has only contributed in order to generate sales and not to participate in the community... I.E contributions that appear to be free in the first instance, until they are installed and a service is then needed which is a pay for service before the contribution is of any use..

Isnt that why there is a link on the support iPage site detailing how to ask for sponsorship.

People come and go.. thats life in the open source development world..

Regards..

That is not unreasonable at all. If only:.

And when the person does this they get a "no thank you, not at this time"..

So on the one hand, Osc is asking for sponsorship, and on the other is turning it away. This whilst earning pennies per click from Adwords, as opposed to hundreds of guaranteed dollars per month from "proper" adverts.....

This is not going to go much further, it's probably all about target audience and the regard contained towards an audience (it is not suggested that these are the same)..

In general things so far seem very hobbyist..

Somewhat intwined with the previous comment about the non openess to follow possibly real discussions by the team.

Etc.

Regarding osCommerce makes it somewhat implausible to warrant not only paying osCommerce.

And.

To actively participate and help support the community (clearly osCommerce is opening up a new path which is not what I'm refering to), if you look at the stats for the forum the leading majority of posts are probably in relation to contributions and e-commerce related topics..

There's a saying something like 'mastery of a subject comes when teaching it'. yet osCommerce only offers a very restrained function in the e-commerce role. And out of 30,000 community members 11 team members cannot constitute all it's focus..

A few weeks ago a post was made suggesting that a support thread be opened soley for Search Engine related topics, this type of topic post.

Frequently.

Occurs all over the forums, yet in willingless to help service the community no such channel is provided nor even a reply returned..

Another moral, in one particular class no matter how great the code was they wanted to and initially failed people for lack of documentation, the lesson learnt was that it some eyes code is only worth less than 50% of the overall project. Yes it may be appreciated that your making better steps towards this but I'm also intwining it with the above paragraph(s)..

Another thought, there is a book available about osCommerce, this member has also clearly suggested having made substantial donations and could also be considered a veteran osC'er, yet it still seems acceptable to charge and give the same random probability of chance to this outstanding member. I think that this member and many others should have the forum member status upgraded to 'accredited member'..

As said in the previous post this should be regarded as a discussion rather than an argument, the latter leads to believe that ultimately these thoughts don't want to be heard. So lets see some real continual discussions about code etc occuring...

There is a set criteria for becoming a official sponsor..

You must be been given a reason why the sponsorship offer wasnt taken up. I suggest you contact the team member involved if not...

I dont understand what you mean.....

I dont very often see good discussions being started about coding issues / development methods etc.. if these discussions are not started then how can be we open about it.

Then maybe a team member hasn't seen the post.

As you say there are only 11 people in the team.. we sure cant read every single post made. If you think it's important why not PM a team member and ask for an official response?.

There currently is only 1 level of community member... just look what happened when we introduced the believers title..

It will be taken into consideration during the upcomming updates to the support iPage site as annouced in the progress reports..

So far the posts made havent really talked about code progress or new features... it started off with a comment about the trialing of the ad words.. If you want to start discussing new ways of developing osCommerce it could be easier to start a new topic and focus on 1 issue at a time rather than intertwining with other issues which cloud the perspective and make it harder for people to try and follow what you are trying to achieve...

Indeed I was. I was simply pointing out that it is not straightforward or easy to sponsor Osc (at this time)..

I believe the "testing phase" that Harald mentioned above has something to do with it. Perhaps when it can be seen that adverts do raise an income then it might become easier to be an advertiser/sponsor...

Ah Ok..

I thought you meant you didnt know why you offer was turned down.

As mentioned the testing phase is just that... if we dont try something then we will never know if it works or not.

We are always looking at ways to improve the information flow to show that despite some mis-conceptions we arent a bunch of ego-maniacs who hate anything relating to commercialism.

The sponsorship area is something that we do plan to look at once we have a few of the more important tasks out of the way such as the next release..

Well if you certainly were interested in code discussions you may well of offered to continuing discussing a very lenghty pm I sent you regarding the checkout, and even another post by another member who wanted to discuss revising the checkout..

Some how it doesn't all add up and seems all so easy to wash away and is very eaily played down..

I don't post very much at all now and only within a particular section. Furthermore it's has now seemedly been made absoltely clear that it is even more pointless to want to freely share ideas..

It is acknowledged that some consideration has been noted to be made..

Another additional method that could be made to help are commercial licenses similar to PHP-Nuke..

Anyway, also rembering what Harald said, I know at the end of the day, is that you lot are here for the good of all or rather your intentions are not bad etc, so hopefully something mutual or seemedly fair to all may transpire...

From memory you are referring to the Paypal IPN system?.

This was a pending issue after a new checkout system was looked into. You will also find messages sent to me via PM dont really get answered as quickly as the discussion we had via email..

If you want to discuss it again then start a new thread rather than a PM so more people can get involved..

Maybe you have the PHP rounding bug.

Sharing idea's is welcomed, however some discussions are only of benefit to certain users.. it is those I dont generally get involved in...

Personally, I think the adwords are a great idea. They are unobtrusive, can be filtered for inappropriateness, and will bring in a small amount of revenue for the project and core team..

I hope the core team gets rich off of these, I doubt they will, but they deserve it..

I would like to see a section added where (for a fee), people can offer commercial services. This should be kept separate from the forums, just a place where I could buy a banner add / text box on a commercial services page. Charge me $50 - $100 a month, I only want to post it there so I can make money, it's worth it..

There is nothing wrong with the core team finding ways to make a few dollars, especially if they can do this AND keep osCommerce freely available..

Dan..

Sparky wrote:.

I agree wholeheartedly, particularly if their main reason for being here is to generate income from.

OsC-related.

Products and services. I have participated in numerous mailing lists and forums over the years. Those who have displayed their expertise through honest-intentioned posts without a hidden agenda have earned my brownie points (and bucks!) when I've needed assistance, be it programming or other consulting services. There.

Are.

Appropriate ways to make yourself known..

As an aside, I spent years searching for shopping cart software that would meet the needs of my online store, now entering it's 8th year of business. In the process, I spent upwards of $2000 purchasing various scripts and externally-hosted solutions that failed to do what I wanted never mind the amount of labor that went into each one!.

I stumbled across osC in December, and have since marvelled at it's functionality and ability to adapt to my particular circumstances and for free! How awesome is that??? I know what the cost of this program would be if it were offered by a commercial outfit rather than as an open source solution!.

In my opinion, if I am going to take what has been so kindly offered for free, I feel that is also my obligation to GIVE BACK to the osC community by either:.

1. Assisting community members with answers in the forums (at least where my rather limited PHP knowledge allows!), or.

2. Contributing what I can, where I can, to the osC development team, whether financially or otherwise (code contributions, etc.)..

(Yet, in the first instance, one of the posters to this topic jokingly(?) slapped my wrist in a PM telling me that I was helping out 'too much' on the forums and making it difficult for them to make a living. With no response to my reply, I decided they really hadn't been kidding...).

Anyway, I think it all boils down to this:.

Are you contributing because you believe in the project and want to ensure osC's ongoing success? Or are you contributing only because you want to ensure.

Your.

Ongoing success? If the latter, how would you promote yourself if the osC forums weren't here? You would surely have to advertise somewhere, somehow. So why begrudge osC for trying to gain those advertising dollars? As I said in my first post, I still think they should take over the banner ads themselves and gain 100% of those revenues instead of giving most of them to Google!.

And, one final point (honest!): without ongoing development and improvements by the people who participate in these forums (together with the osC team, of course), I think it's safe to say you wouldn't have a product or service to promote..

Now stepping off my soapbox....

Terry..

It would be silly not to agree that osCommerce shouldn't be able to have a means for funding it's initiative. Now there has been mentioned at least three ways to help with this. But as breifly mentioned the use of adWords, these can be filtered, so who knows if their are being intentionally blocked another problem is one could say that there does not seem to be any bias..

Up untill may be now, yes contributions, discussions and support (if you will), are made blindly with the intentions because of the belief in the project. You couldn't say that your contributing for ones own success, previously there are 2 reasons for this, i) no commercialism occured in the community and ii) in the long run one is or could be potentially giving osC the copyright to the code..

Some contributions take alot of time to develop, some even continue to develop, so why should it become openly available for people not related to it's development then be able to make use of it for their own gains as a chargeable web service, the original contributor(s) have implicitly already burdened some form of cost towards providing/supporting/extending the contribution, so why should they have to pay again without bias, when others are paying so that they can charge for using it as one of their web services?.

If those donations links were actually used, for example the ones on the support site, then there wouldn't be a need for any other avenue..

It has already been clearly stated that for some reason there was no noticable improvement in the number/types etc of contributions when having a commercial help forum. So how is this going to change? this is probably the most important aspect of it all..

There are diffent types of users of osCommerce, and the forum community is only probably a small part of the number of users, which is the public and freely provided part that is seen, information occuring here occurs (through moderation) in the belief of the project's open source..

There was no comment made about the suggestion of a commercial license (which is optional and is only intended per domain) yet this from personal experience I know could provide alot of recourse to osC...

This is no different to us supplying you with osCommerce for free and then you selling it as a webhosting service..

We have time and money invested in the solution and we have costs relating to webhosting etc..

True.. however the current level of donations isnt very high so other avenues need to be looked into..

I dont see how the commercial help forum can be linked to the google ad words?.

This is something that hasn't been discussed within the team and does have implications which is why no comment has been made..

Regards..

Well, for starters, since you yourself provide osC services and support, do you not "make use of it for [your] own gains as a chargeable web service"?.

If so, then using your theory, why wouldn't the osC dev team also deserve a kickback of some sort from you? Ditto with the contributions of others if you're offering installation/modification services to customers and use more than the base script, should you be offering donations to other contributors?.

The whole philosophy behind.

Open source.

Software is to encourage the continued development of a project by it's user community. Personally speaking, I could care less if they take the few modifications I've submitted and wrap them up into the next version of osC without any financial consideration to me, regardless of the amount of time I've put into them, because.

I've already received the full value of a kick-butt shopping cart system entirely for FREE!.

Very true..

So... Are the.

DONATION LINKS.

Not well used because nobody can find them buried on the.

TEAM.

Page? Or because folks don't feel that a.

DONATION.

To the.

TEAM.

Is necessary, for whatever reason? (Note to all: hint, hint).

I have no idea what the costs involved are to maintain the osC web iPage site let alone to continue to develop the code but they must be steep. None of us will be very far ahead if the project dies due to lack of funding. While that doesn't appear to be an issue right now, it may one day. It's therefore up to.

All.

Of us to help keep it going, whether by financial contribution or coding support, or both..

Terry..

Terry what you failed to mention in your earlier post about the person who PM'ed you was that same person weeks before freely offered hours of assistance. That pm was a complement, and it is very disheartening that you now try to peceive it otherwise..

Yes you have a point about using other contributions while offering web.

Development.

Services, but in a post deleted along time ago I had already identified this, and this is something that's troubled me, especially for those who actively update and support there contribution..

I'm not going to fight for words or justifcation here, but I'm not the only one and now that advertising without any bias does change things this is what I'm trying to relate..

If you care to read this.

Post.

You will see that I made an enquiry about a commercial license, you can also see a response, you should probably also note which members was aware of that related discussion..

Terry your product are goods sold via osCommerce, so developing code is not your primary intention..

If you go to the php nuke iPage site you'll see reference to commercial licensing, advertizing (where costs are not allowed to be disclosed), and a club for those wanting to commit a futher level of development and participation compared to those who do not yet they (.

Currently.

) seek to benefit.

Equally.

From all of this - is this fair?.

So far osCommerce has offered no.

Subsidy.

For any member who actively supports the community, this has been acknowledged by Harald but seems trivial to Mark..

If you reread the posts I've made you may see that I already indirectly referred to a club, e.g a different level of membership..

What it exactly all entails needs to be clarified and worked on..

Mark made a comment that they have time and money invested in osCommerce, but in directly so did such a commitment was made when certain contributors develop, maintain and actively support their work..

Mark only made reference to web iPage hosting companies, but not to actual developers, there is a difference and a further difference between those actively contributing and supporting and or participating within the community..

What Mark seemed confused about in my reference between commercial help forums and google adwords, was that I was refering to contributions to osCommerce, previosuly it was stated by the team that there was not noticible difference in the contributions being made by having the commercial help forum, and I'm suggesting that unless a better level of membership is made then osCo could face having no professional (for want of a better or appropate word) contributions.

Directly.

Being made..

As he pointed out people sell their services. So why now with the free for all advertizing opportunity would anyone want or have any incentive to contribute directly to osCommerce, there would be nothing unique about the services that they're offerring..

In order to complement things a subsidy needs to be provided to those who want to actively participate..

What I'm suggesting is that there should be in an intermediate level for those supporting and seriously developing additional code towards the osCommerce cause and even those who just want to take their membership to a step further..

This post has been edited by.

Gregbaboolal.

: 11 June 2004, 12:17..

I dont think that post was to be considered an attack on any member more of a fleeting comment and didnt mention names... now we all know the person involved.

You seem to be making a distinction about how osCommerce is used..

You are troubled by the fact that xyz can download your contribution.. integrate it into a solution and then sell this solution via google ad words..

This is no different to what happens now.. except that there is now an offical way to advertise your solution for which we recieve financial support for passing that customer on to you..

We cant please 100% of members 100% of the time, however looking at this thread there arent many others that dont like the google ad words trial..

As mentioned earlier there isnt a commercial licence available for osCommerce..

I dont think any of my comments say contributions are trivial..

That was my point.. it's not only contributors that have time invested so do the team... however your arguments are all based around it not being fair to developers of contributions..

I have over 3500 hours of my personal time invested in osCommerce so far is it so unfair as for ask for help to pay the costs of keeping osCommerce free?.

I am "Confused" as to what you have a problem with?.

Is it the fact that we are using the google ad words for which you dont use or is it something else?.

In what way is there a difference.....

You have iPage hosting companies that sell osCommerce as a service to their customers, some also provide custom development..

You have developers that download oscommercce, modify it for a client and then charge them for the work..

I dont consider the advertising via ad words a free for all..

The incentive to contribute to osCommerce shouldnt be about money it should be about having a community spirit and wanting osCommerce to suceed..

I what way can we provide a subsidy?.

We are trying to acknowledge the support of members with the new interviews section....

Any what do you suggest the requirements are for this "intermediate level" of member?.

How do you suggest we stop the same issues arriving as to when we had the believers title which did what you are proposing...

The title "believer" is something that *anyone* could get if they had over a certain number of posts. Therefore you had a believer who spouted 500 posts of mindless drivel who had the same identity as someone who had 500 posts of useful posts..

The difference therefore is that HPDL and the Team can pick and choose "accredited members", rather than some automatic system giving a tag to everyone based on # of posts..

There's a big difference..

Anyway, I need to go out now, but I will be back to respond to some more of your points later. Quick Edit on my way out the door: The "I'm a believer" thread. Absolute drivel - but people got to be a believer by posting cr*p into it....

Later..

This post has been edited by.

Burt.

: 11 June 2004, 13:14..

Maybe you could put together some suggestions on how it would work?..

I'm not sure that it would work or be useful (I havent really thought about it at all), I was just pointing out the difference in how it *could* work.....

What I'm trying to identify, I think, also goes beyond just beyond contributions and developers..

You do seem confused..

The osCommerce community has a variety of members with different interests..

Now for example, suppose someone devotes 20 hrs a week to generally supporting the community, e.g. actively participates in the forums, now for this example lets extend that so include an addition 10 developing code which they would like to contribute..

Now for this imaginary example lets say that their costs are $10 dollars an hour..

Now for this example lets say they also pay $50 per week to advertize through some of medium on the osCommerce site..

That sums up to be $80 per week..

Now compare that to the price of a person not actively participating in the community, remember 'community' is the key word..

They get to pay $50 per week only for advertizing and make no direct participation or support to the community or contribute anything else..

You are trying to say well that's life and how we want and like it?.

But for those who are commited and like to.

Also.

Participate directly within the community, albeit give additional support, you're saying well gee thanks for helping our community to aspire but we won't recognize it anyway..

Well in that other post maybe I didn't ask the right question or make the right suggestion, about the license being per domain..

Alot of effort goes into customizing osCommerce, people are willing to pay you to allow them to remove/change the copyright for their domain. For them and in some cases it could be cruicial for them to have their own public copyright, they're trying to run a business. And I can personally say that for one to of had to customized osCommerce to specifically suit their needs it is can be heart breaking for them to not beable to use their own copy right and even pay you for the authorization to do so. Yet you say you need money..

It is when everyone (i.e those who participate and those who do not) gets the equal opportunity to see. Harold has already acknowledged that the community (and implicitly those within) is a substantial and significant factor to the success of osCommerce..

Mark you either doing this intentionally or you just can't see. I made suggestions, I'm trying, what the end result is, as said earlier, is not clear..

I had mentioned that advertizing rates where not allowed to be publically disclosed..

No, have where did I suggest this?.

Well one probable reason for those who know osCommerce a little bit better, know it's not worth saying anything since at the end of the day no matter what's said who knows whats going to happen. A direct example is when you initially did not say anything about the suggestion for a commerical license. Why do people bother, and don't get an answer, you seemed to of answered everything else in that post and seem to have a smart answer for everything else..

I'm not spending anymore time on this, you obviously seem think that I'm arguing with you and it is clear that it is not wanted, I already tried to play it down but you persisted..

In regard to your last post, I'm not sure whether your being funny or anything. I've had enough.......

Greg, I'm absolutely NOT discounting the assistance you gave me when I needed it. I told you then, and will repeat now, that it was MUCH appreciated. I also know that it was given freely in the spirit of community. And, if you recall, I also returned the favor with a bit of graphic design help albeit late....

But, when there was no reply to my response, and taking into consideration some of the comments in this thread, I have to admit that I did begin to have some doubts. I'm sorry. I just didn't 'get' the compliment in your original post..

I don't begrudge you or anyone else the right to earn a living from osC-related services, Greg. In fact, and with all sincerity, I hope your business thrives..

You're right, it's not. But even still, I have spent a significant amount of time tweaking the code to suit my needs and sharing my results with the forum community, plus taking an hour or two out of every day to help some of the other forum members with their questions..

I think this could be very complicated..

You may spend hours/weeks/months developing code and supporting your PayPal contribution (and yes, I know you've been very responsive in that thread!), but I also spend a great deal of time trying to assist others with their various questions on the forums..

So, say the team decide to give you (and others like you) a subsidized banner ad to link to your osC development/support site. That's great! But suppose the team decides they don't want to allow non-osC-related ads now how do they somehow compensate me and the countless others who similarly support the forums in more behind-the-scenes kind of ways, but no less important?.

I'm not sure I agree with this..

By reading the forums, it becomes readily apparent at least to me which members have more expertise in the areas of development and customization. If I weren't so stubborn about wanting to do it myself, the 'smarter' me would have taken over and I'd have long ago hired someone to get my store done a heckuva lot faster than I'm managing to..

Perhaps there is a place for this, but the mechanics of getting there could be very difficult to achieve..

This has been an interesting thread thanks for sharing your thoughts, and listening to mine....

Terry..

This is an interesting thread..

TerryK: I think (with respect) that you maybe do not realise quite how much support is needed to be given with "large" contributions. Developers generally receive 100 to 150 email/PM messages daily...it's impossible to keep up with..

General Comment: It would be nice to be recognised by the Core Team, what they (and the general public) see is the tip of the iceberg as to how much help is actually given..

I find it a little annoying that right now (7:30pm Friday in the UK), I can see 2 links on os.info site:.

Oscommerce Programmer.

And.

Need a Ecommerce package.

I have never seen these people post here in the Forum to help out, and yet they are able to directly advertise to the users here. Can that be fair to those who do give their time freely ? .

So, now I can just pay for Adwords. Therefore the question is:.

Why should a developer spend their time to help out here, when all it now takes is a few pennies per click to have more buying and targeted customers..

Hypothetical question for answering: I work hard to help others for little return, why should I just not leave the Forum and advertise on os.info via Adwords?.

If it wasn't for pro developers, Oscommerce would be nowhere near the product that it now is. Good thing or bad thing - I don't know..

What I do know is that I feel mistreated with respect to not being able to advertise my services, whereas people who do not do anything publically spirited are able to get ads on os.info (unless I spend more money than them)...

Burt, I do know how much effort many of you put into supporting contributions, and I appreciate the knowledge of those who have come before me being shared in the forums, which has made my encounter with osC a whole lot easier..

BUT... (and I'm honestly.

Not.

Trying to sound facetious here), do you not also reap the rewards of that effort? For example, in your case, either by sales of your skins and/or new osc book(s)? Certainly your level of credibility as an osC expert is enhanced by virtue of your participation in these forums..

When I was doing web design work for a living, I participated in a number of forums where commercial posts were not allowed. Yet I was often contacted directly by people who had read my posts and felt that I could help them with their businesses. Does that not happen here? (Serious question I don't know the answer...).

Well, on the face of it, perhaps not. But are you certain that these people don't post in the forums? Given that advertising your osC-related business is not allowed, and that user names don't necessarily match a business name, perhaps they really are active, but under a user ID you don't recognize. (Then again, maybe they aren't. I don't know.).

Because it gives you an added level of credibility, as I mentioned above. I don't know how successful the sales of your skins or books are, but if you're generating income from them, it must surely be related at least in part to your participation in these forums, IMHO..

No dispute there. At all..

Well, perhaps when/if osC decides to take control of banner ads themselves, they will take participation/contributions into consideration and set rates accordingly. I don't know..

Terry..

Let me see if I have this straight. You want the osC developers to divert some of the money they receive from the google ads to the contributors. So, if they make $3500 a month from the program (which seems very high to me; perhaps someone else can give a better idea of the amounts that would be involved), they might keep half for themselves and distribute the other half to the various people who have made contributions? That's what, $1 per contribution (ignoring the fact that most contributions have more than one contributor)? Even with what I consider to be a ridiculously high monthly income from the ads (I started with the $1 and worked my way back to $3500 in the calculations), it's still not a large enough economic incentive to bring in any contributors..

Turn it around. What incentive do the osC developers have to continue to offer a free shopping cart and forums. By your logic, the forums and contributions area are bad for them. Without the forums and contributions, the only source for osC help would be the developers themselves. Wouldn't they be better off getting rid of the forums and the contributions area? Remember, without osCommerce, your contribution is just a useless hunk of code. Without your contribution, osC is still a usable shopping cart..

I think that you are looking at the issue backwards. Instead of thinking about how to make money from the osCommerce iPage site based on your contribution, consider how to make money from other sources using your contribution as proof of ability. There aren't enough referrals starting from osC to support everyone that makes contributions or posts in the forums..

Most of those who come to the osCommerce iPage site are looking for a free solution. Expecting them to pay you for work is not an effective way of finding work. Better to go to more general sites (not devoted to free software) and post there. One is more likely to find people who want to pay for development. Even better is to try to sell your services to local businesses. They *expect* to have to pay for services..

Look at the Google ads as a chance to draw revenue from your competitors: click on them yourself. More money for osC and less for your competitoryou're strictly better off..

Cheers,.

Matt..

I'm.

Not.

Saying that all!.

I can't write much more, but the above is not what I am saying or ever suggested, the reference to susidy was in regard to advertizing..

Read the other iPage site I metnitioned and gleam what is possible from the commercial license, advertizing (rates are not disclosed), and club..

If you notice there are at least two different types of adverts, one is google...

With the AdWords program, you aren't allowed to divulge how much you earn..

So without giving anything away, I can tell you that on my iPage site serving about 2 million page views a month and with google ads on the busiest section of the iPage site except within my store for the past year or so I'd be EXTREMELY happy (grateful... delirious... shocked... take your choice) to receive the kind of financial remuneration you 'guesstimate.' I don't think it'll happen in my lifetime..

So, if that's any indication of what osC might gain from the same program, I doubt it will be any kind of 'get-rich-quick' scheme..

Terry..

Actaully in in earlier posts a better phrase would of been subsidy and accredidation, how to determine for the latter could well be tricky, but then again how do you determine interviews, there might be a.

Small.

Correlation in this, I'm not sure..

I've got work that I could make freely available, it combines at least three different very popular contributions and it is based upon core osC structure which I quickly developed or rather extracted from another core part of osCommerce..

It takes time to develop things like this, and to continue it's development, but it's not feasible to just want to offer it directly here, there is no bias...

The other problem with it all, is because we don't know exactly what's occurring in terms of core development makes things difficult to determine where things fit in..

The mere fact that I raised this thread of issues, shows that I'm interested in seeing a slight better albeit fairer environment..

For what it's worth osC is no longer a primary focus, when it was it was because of the enjoyment of doing the things that ones like doing best...

As mentioned a commercial licence isnt a quick fix.. there are a number of issues that would need to be discussed in detail between the team before this could even be considered..

I was trying to get you to think how these suggestions would work in real life... which is why I asked for details on how you think the accredited member / advertising could work to ensure it's as fair as possible...

Sparky: The advertising is very easy to accomplish. Take the value of what Pair gives (on a monthly basis). Let's say that is $100 [example]..

Now you charge anyone who wants to advertise $100 per month. Their banners now rotate along with the Pair Banner[s]..

It couldn't be simpler, really. The only issue is what Pair will say about it when they learn that their advertising has effectively been diluted by others..

Now you have your free? webserver and b/width from Pair. And you now have extra income from banner advertisers..

Winners all around. Except Pair...

People often contact via PM and email, but most expect to have work done for free..

Eg, a recent one, "you made this great testimonial contribution, but what I need to be able to do is allow people to input their testimonial along with a mug shot of themself...".

The person expected this work to be done for free and wanted it by the weekend !!??!!.

Quite true..

I understand that, but now that Os has gone down the route of Adwords, we no longer need credibility, do we? Or do we?.

Agreed...

Easy solution: one banner at the top, one at the bottom. (Or make the osC logo smaller like on the KB section, and you could fit in two at the top, two at the bottom.).

Terry..

I understand the concerns of contributors and community members wanting more praise for their work - until recently all the praise generated was done on ones own behalf through the community forums, and will obviously remain to be the primary method of building up ones own reputation..

A jump was made in this area with the new Interviews section - however this also has it's dark side with numerous people forwarding us their interview answers and others possibly feeling rejected when not being contacted..

It is not our intention to harm the community with the services provided through the support site, but to provide bonuses to kickstart the motivations people have so that they continue.

Doing the things they like doing best.

..

As already mentioned, with such a large community, it is impossible to make everyone happy when a change occurs - it's even possible to upset people when no changes occur.

Whatever changes have so far happened (since the beginning of the project) have not been "just for the fun of it", but have been made to meet the demands of the growing community, and have been discussed and agreed on by the team. This assures that whatever changes are made, that.

The changes are fair for the team and for the community as a whole.

..

The change regarding the Google advertisement was made to help the project financially to improve the services provided..

Whatever was generated by donations was always put back to the project, and whatever is being generated with the Google advertisement will also be put back to the project. And whatever will be generated in future will also be put back to the project..

Obviously whatever is currently being generated is peanuts but does help cover the expenses, and will be expanded on in the future when we ourselves have given something back to the community (2.2 Milestone 3)..

The replies made should be in the "community" sense - if this is being mixed with "personal" issues, then it may be better to deal with it directly with a team member...

I noticed that the newly heavily promoted knowledge base iPage website is also advertizing links to other sites offering commercial services. But, and I maybe mistaken, I have not seen any information provided as to how such occurances have happened and are being provided..

I'm also confused how such commercial links are now being deemed acceptable yet it was only a couple of months ago a particular contribution was removed from the contibutions section since it.

Also.

Offered an advanced automative subscription service..

Another puzzling aspect is the fact that via these commercial links modified versions of osCommerce are being provided. These modified versions contain contributions from authors who they themselves offer their own services, so why is it that particular parties are being allowed to promote or piggyback themselves and yet actual authors do not get a similar opportunity - what's happening?..

I only see a small button (bottom right corner) for Pair and one for Source Forge ?? Same as on the Osc site, and these forums....